From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V2 #47 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 9 January 1993 Volume 02 : Number 047 In this issue: Re: First batch of images Draken (was Re: Interesting Sweeps) Re: US-based Draken Wing sweep Re: The New, Improved Skunkworks. James Bamford Re: The New, Improved Skunkworks. Re: The New, Improved Skunkworks. Re: US-based Draken Re: US-based Draken See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 04:50:17 MST Subject: Re: First batch of images brndlfly@Athena.MIT.EDU writes: >Scanned in the first six of the pictures. They're coming your way right now. Great! Thanks. >c5.jpg: A C-5B trundles up for a drink, as seen by the boomer. My second > favorite of these first six. >x29.jpg: My favorite fo the six. Surreal shot of the X-29 on the ground at > dusk. Neat neat neat! Those sound like they would be my favorites as well. On to ftp'ing... >I went out and bought "Inside Lockheed's Blackbird" and boy is there >a good shot in there! There is a LOT of 'em! I like that book a lot. (got my copy at the NASA Dryden gift shop :) Here are my recommendations of "scanable" pages from that book: Page 8, 12, 60, 83... Plus the cockpit views on 125-127 might be nice. There are tons of great two-page photos in this book, but they would be a little tough to scan. >I also have a shot of the Aurora spyplane lined up. >Okay, so it's an artist's impression of the Aurora (psyche!). Yea! We need some of those in the s-w archive. >I have NOT been able to find any good shots of Wild Weasel F-105's. >The Detail & Scale had some small, poor-quality photos but that's about it. >If anybody knows of a better source, let me know. The Richardson "Republic F-105" book has several F-105G shots, including a nice one with a tail code of "WW" - -dean ------------------------------ From: Michael D Tissandier Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 7:26:04 EST Subject: Draken (was Re: Interesting Sweeps) > > > you wrote: > >The SAAB Draken has 89 degree/40 (42?) degree sweep in its double > >delta "Cranked Arrow" wing. The F-16 cranked arrows have about the same > >sweep, if different wing details (among other things the plane is > >nose-heavy...). > > I lied. It's 79. something degrees sweep on the inner section, not 89. > (Duh, it's not STRAIGHT back 8-) > > BTW, does anyone know who's got the privately owned Draken in the US? > I know someone has one, saw it flying somewhere... > > -george > The Draken, if I'm not too terribly mistaken, is owned by Bobby Rahal of Indy car fame. It appears in a couple of commercials with his race car. --Mike - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Russians can give you arms, but only the United States can give you a selection ---Anwar Sadat mtissand@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Belly up to the Clue Bar and have one on me. 08-Jan-1993 0817 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 08:25:42 EST Subject: Re: US-based Draken [Attn. Phil: rathole alert!] Michael D Tissandier wrote, re: a comment by gwh@lurnix.COM: >> BTW, does anyone know who's got the privately owned Draken in the US? >> I know someone has one, saw it flying somewhere... >> >> -george >The Draken, if I'm not too terribly mistaken, is owned by Bobby Rahal of >Indy car fame. It appears in a couple of commercials with his race car. > --Mike BZZZTTT! The Draken that appears in the Miller Genuine Draft is a subscale homebuilt painted in MGD colors that also does a aerobatic routine at airshows across the country. In fact, a model aircraft is used for some of the shots. The car that appears in the commerical is also not Rahal's, by a long shot. The driver isn't Rahal. The team isn't Rahal's. You can't see spectators from the racing surface at Phoenix International. But other than that, the ad is right-on. George ------------------------------ From: Belly up to the Clue Bar and have one on me. 08-Jan-1993 1119 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 11:26:35 EST Subject: Wing sweep Could the JDW Aurora configuration use deployable surfaces (VG, if you will) to enhance takeoff and landing performance? Some of the pre-Shuttle ILRV studies showed re-entry vehicles with deployable wings (and even rotors). This enabled "ideal" hypersonic configurations (like highly-swept wing-body designs) to have acceptable takeoff/landing performance. Seems like it would add a significant amount of weight and complexity, however. And does the (relatively) small size of this purported vehicle bother anybody? (It's theoretically about the same length and span as an SR-71). Mach 8 and a 6000 mi. range has to suck up a lot of fuel, whether it's methane or No-Nox. Where are they putting it? An integrated wing-body design would give you lots of usable internal volume, but would it be enough to meet the design objectives? I guess there's no way to really discuss it without knowing the fuel type and SFC. I suppose they could use drop tanks to provide extra fuel to get through the high-drag transonic region, then go to internal fuel for the high speed run. George ------------------------------ From: tom@gordian.com (Tom Ambrose) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 09:59:15 PST Subject: Re: The New, Improved Skunkworks. kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek) writes: [stuff deleted] > >From The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence by Marchetti comes this from > page 23 of the Dell books March 75 printing: > > Apart from disclosure of information classified by the Atomic Energy > Commission, it is not a crime to disclose classified information > unless it is done under circumstances which involve what is commonly understood > as espionage - spying for a foreign nation. The government tried, in the > prosecution fo Daniel Ellsberg, to stretch the espionage statutes to punish > his disclosure of the Pentagon Papers, even though he had had no intent to > injure the United States, as required by the statute. Though that > prosecution was aborted under the most dramatic circumstances, including > a surreptitious attempt by President Nixon to influence the trial judge, > it is unlikely that the appeals courts would have upheld such an expansive > application of the espionage laws - assuming that the jury would even > have brought in a guilty verdict. > > Me again. So far this book is very entertaining, even considering > its age. I'd recommend it. Really is frightening. The nutshell is that > the CIA's primary job/focus is not the gathering and desemmination of > intel, but rather is that of interfering with foreign governments. > I wonder how it is nowadays? > > Any CIA types on the skunk list? (Not that they'd ever speak up... ;-) There was a good special on Nixon on PBS a few months back that mentioned this episode with the judge. Not too surprising, Nixon was a very paranoid character. I have not read "The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence" by Marchetti. Its on my list of books to read. A good book to read for a more modern look at the CIA and its role in foreign policy (at least in the Reagan years) is "Veil: the Secret Wars of the CIA 1981-87" by Bob Woodward. It covers all of the Bill Casey years. Another good intelligence book is "The Puzzle Palace" (I can't remeber the author right now). Its all about the NSA from its beginnings up until 1982 (when the book was released). Another book by Bob Woodward is called "The Commanders". It covers the decision making of the Bush administration up to the Gulf War. The CIA had a large role in that as well. I've read a few other intelligence type books as well. Write me if you are interested. Sorry about the non-skunk babble. I'll try scanning the Skunk Works ad this weekend. We have a Mac scanner here at work. I've never used it. If the ad is in this Sunday's paper as well, I'll send mail. If you get the LA Times, you can't miss it. Its a half page ad. - -tom ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 10:58:42 PST Subject: James Bamford >From: US1RMC::"tom@gordian.com" "Tom Ambrose" 8-JAN-1993 13:52:10.45 >To: skunk-works@orchestra.ecn.purdue.edu >Subj: Re: The New, Improved Skunkworks. >Casey years. Another good intelligence book is "The Puzzle Palace" (I can't >remeber the author right now). James Bamford comes to mind. > Its all about the NSA from its beginnings up until 1982 (when the book was >released). I found it a tad anti NSA... (that is, i do not find the NSA to be without fault, however, imo, Bamford is critical in unnecessary areas.) regards dwp ------------------------------ From: davem@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Michelson) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 12:09:10 PST Subject: Re: The New, Improved Skunkworks. For what it's worth, LADC ran a recruiting ad in IEEE Antennas and Propagation Magazine a few months ago. - -- Dave Michelson davem@ee.ubc.ca ------------------------------ From: davem@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Michelson) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 12:09:10 PST Subject: Re: The New, Improved Skunkworks. For what it's worth, LADC ran a recruiting ad in IEEE Antennas and Propagation Magazine a few months ago. - -- Dave Michelson davem@ee.ubc.ca ------------------------------ From: gwh@lurnix.COM Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 15:22:06 -0800 Subject: Re: US-based Draken >>> BTW, does anyone know who's got the privately owned Draken in the US? >>The Draken, if I'm not too terribly mistaken, is owned by Bobby Rahal of >BZZZTTT! The Draken that appears in the Miller Genuine Draft is a subscale >homebuilt painted in MGD colors that also does a aerobatic routine at airshows >across the country. In fact, a model aircraft is used for some of the shots. I heard that someone else apparently DID own a real one, wether someone made a subscale homebuilt or not (which has crossed my mind more than once; I've got the plans I drew up around here somewhere... 8-) They're not that hard to get; everyone who owns them now is phasing them out, and they're all being surplused. - -george william herbert ------------------------------ From: Per Danielsson Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 05:21:34 +0100 Subject: Re: US-based Draken >I heard that someone else apparently DID own a real one, [...] Yes, there is a privately owned SABB 35 Draken in the US. I don't who owns it. >They're not that hard to get; everyone who owns them now is phasing them >out, and they're all being surplused. Draken was/is in service in four countries: Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Austria. The Swedish Airforce is not selling any surplus airplanes which is of a type still in active inventory. It keeps the surplus planes for spares. Austria is not phasing out its Drakens. It just got them a few years ago. Finland is phasing out its Drakens, but not completely until it takes delivery of all the F/A-18s on order. I doubt that they are selling them. That leaves Denmark. I don't know the status of the Drakens in Denmark. I haven't heard of them being sold to private citizens, though. *I* think Drakens *are* hard to get. The one flying in the US ended up privately owned more or less because of a mistake by the Swedish Airforce Museum. I can't remember the exact details, but I can look them up if someone is interested. ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V2 #47 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from harbor.ecn.purdue.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).