From: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V2 #17 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 1 December 1992 Volume 02 : Number 017 In this issue: Whats in a name... Area 51 tours... Area 51 tours... Re: Reconnaissance Balloons Re: Reconnaissance Balloons (lets try again) Re: Area 51 Tours Rubber ramjets Baloons Castle AFB Re: Balloons Aurora Re: Reconnaissance Balloons (lets try again) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: I am the NRA Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 09:35:18 PST Subject: Whats in a name... Zoz writws, in part: Is this list still alive? I was getting 20 messages a day and suddenly I have got none in the past week or so. What's up? Have all the list members been whisked away by the secret service or something ;) All the USA based ones may have been on Thanksgiving Break. (locally observed holiday, celbrated with food and football...) As to the copywright issue, in a particular court case i noted in the NY Times (25 Nov), they came down on someond for publishing 52% of a source. The specifics, of course, were different. More apropos: The Standard Version has the U2 named as a Utility A/C, as part of the cover. (was there a U1???) Curtis Peebles, in Moby Dick Project, Reconaissance Ballons over Russia, has a different version, buried in the notes to chapter 7. Referncing "The U2 Story", Society of Experimental Test Pilots: It was after the first test flight that the aircraft got its name. [The reccomendation had been to touch down nose gear first, which Tony Le Vier tried _five_ times, almost crashing each time. He eventually put it down "tail first" successfully. Recall that the gear were narrow and the wings long.... dwp] LeVier was climbing out of the airplane when he saw [Kelly] Johnson and "saluted" him with an obscene gesture [presumably "the bird", aka "the finger"... dwp] and mumbled something about Kelly trying to kill him. [Kelly had reccomended the nose down approach]. Kelly responded with the same gesture and "You Too!". Le Vier answered "You Did!" The U2/"You Too" label stuck. Now, this story is certainly amusing, and human. I wonder if it really helped name tha a/c... regards dwp ------------------------------ From: scooter@emunix.emich.edu (Todd McDaniel) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 17:24:20 EDT Subject: Area 51 tours... Hi Skunk fans, Last night I happened to catch the end of a program called "Mysteries from beyond the other dimension" on the Sci-Fi channel. At least I'm pretty sure of the title! Anyway, they talked to the guy who was offering the tours of Area 51. The also showed some vague video of what was thought to be the "Aurora" landing at Area 51. They showed the picture from AW&ST, that seemed to imply that it carried a second stage, and some computer genterated video of a wire framed "aurora" passing in front of the viewer. The report was interesting, except for the gentleman insisting that the USAF had *NINE* "opperational" alien spacecraft, that had either crashed or were aquired through *TRADE* with an alien intelligence, that maintained a presence on the base. Other video clips shown: A blue bus reportedly taking people to work at A. 51 and some really bad night-sight footage, supposedly the first, of Area 51. The phone number for these Area 51 excursions was listed in the credits, but I failed to copy it down. The show will be broadcast again on Saturday morning, so.... - -tj - -- - ------------------------------Save the wolves--------------------------------- | _________ ___ ___ ___ |EngliNet: Todd John McDaniel | | /________/| /__/| /__/\ /__/| |InterNet: scooter@emunix.emich.edu | | |___ ___|/ | || | \\ / || | | | | || ____| || | |\\//| || | Western Civilization: | | | || /____| || | ||\/ | || | "It would be a good idea" | | |__|/ |_______|/ |__|/ |__|/ | Mohandas K. Gandhi | | | | - ------------------------------Save the wolves--------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 15:34:25 PST Subject: Area 51 tours... That was Gray Line Tours from Tonapah, right? ;-) Rick ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 15:37:51 -0800 Subject: Re: Reconnaissance Balloons ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 15:38:37 -0800 Subject: Re: Reconnaissance Balloons (lets try again) dwp writes: >Curtis Peebles, in Moby Dick Project, Reconaissance Ballons over Russia, ... Interesting! Do you have the details on this publication (publisher, year, etc)? Does anybody know of other books/magazine articles on the reconnaissance baloon projects of the 40's-50's ... whatever? I think these things could travel at 90,000+ feet, were invisible to radar (they had to carry radar reflectors?). Of course they were limited to the winds aloft for propulsion. I've heard a little about the Japanese Fugo (sp?) baloons (they actually did take Hanford out of action for a day (Hanford was making Plutonium for Fat Man), I hear, when one of them downed a power line or something near Hanford. Interesting that the Germans had the A-4 to A-12 rocket and Antipodal Bomber Project concepts, and the Japanese got some success with balloons! Also I've heard of the balloon project named Gopher, but I know very little about that one as well. Of course, there is the Navy/Goodrich rubber ramjet proposal as well. >a different version, buried in the notes to chapter 7. Referncing "The U2 >Story", Society of Experimental Test Pilots: > > It was after the first test flight that the aircraft got its name. > [The reccomendation had been to touch down nose gear first, which Tony > Le Vier tried _five_ times, almost crashing each time. He eventually > put it down "tail first" successfully. Recall that the gear were > narrow and the wings long.... dwp] > > LeVier was climbing out of the airplane when he saw [Kelly] Johnson and > "saluted" him with an obscene gesture [presumably "the bird", aka "the > finger"... dwp] and mumbled something about Kelly trying to kill him. > [Kelly had reccomended the nose down approach]. Kelly responded with > the same gesture and "You Too!". Le Vier answered "You Did!" > > The U2/"You Too" label stuck. There is a similar story in Ernest K. Gann's, "The Black Watch". The story indicates some level of controversy between Kelly and Tony over the appropriate landing technique for the U-2. So there probably is some truth to at least the Johnson/Le Vier controversy, even though "Black Watch" is fiction. Larry ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 15:47:15 -0800 Subject: Re: Area 51 Tours Rick Pavek writes: >That was Gray Line Tours from Tonapah, right? ;-) THAT IS CLEVER! I'd love to see the tour guide! :) Larry ------------------------------ From: CLAFFEY_JOR@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU (Indiana Joe) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 18:59:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rubber ramjets larry@ichips.intel.com writes... > Of course, there is the Navy/Goodrich rubber ramjet proposal as well. If my memory/remembered speculation is correct, the proposal was heavier than air, but inflatable! I do remember (from a _Wings_ episode) that Goodyear produced several inflatable piston-engined aircraft. If I'm misrembering anything, I'm sure someone will correct me. :-) ================================================================================ "Indiana" Joe Claffey = Disclaimer: All non-quoted opinions CLAFFEY_JOR@CCSU.CTSTATEU.EDU = expressed are my own, and anyone else Quote: "Make no small plans." = trying to take credit for them is in - Daniel Burnham = big trouble! ================================================================================ ------------------------------ From: I am the NRA Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 17:07:30 PST Subject: Baloons >From: US1RMC::"larry@ichips.intel.com" "MAIL-11 Daemon" 30-NOV-1992 19:40:30.42 dwp writes: >>Curtis Peebles, in Moby Dick Project, Reconaissance Ballons over Russia, ... >Interesting! >Do you have the details on this publication (publisher, year, etc)? Smithsonian Institution Press 1991 ISBN 1-56098-025-7 Any bookstore that can't get it with that, plus the title, is not to be trusted.... 8)>> >Does anybody know of other books/magazine articles on the reconnaissance >baloon projects of the 40's-50's ... whatever? Another (also by Peebles) whose title escapes me, has about 5 pages. (A note on books. There exists a publication called Books in Print. This goes about 24" of shelf space, for a complete set. The compelete set indexes by author, by subject and by title. A good bookstore will have at least, if only on microfiche. (CD, anybody???) If it doesnt have it, its not a good bookstore...) >I think these things could travel at 90,000+ feet, were invisible to radar >(they had to carry radar reflectors?). Of course they were limited to the >winds aloft for propulsion. Two "models". The one at 90-100,000 was never used over the SU. They didnt QUITE get it debugged. It would have been above everything, including the U2's (which superseded them). The lower set, used, ran at 45-55,000, JUST at the limit of MiG capabilities. They were radar trackable, in fact the SU seemed to be able to track better than we could. For air traffic safety, a cut down was supposed to release the load IF the baloon got below 40,000 (regular air space). The load dropped, the baloon rose till it burst/froze (They were actually vented below so bursting wasn't exactly what happened. >I've heard a little about the Japanese Fugo (sp?) baloons (they actually did >take Hanford out of action for a day (Hanford was making Plutonium for >Fat Man), Spelling is right. For those not familiar, 50 odd sandbags, dropped one at a time, for altitude control on the drift from Japan to the US and Canadian West Coast. The last few postions had incendiaries, the final a small demo bomb. The Japanese had read press accounts of forest fires and tried to capitalize on the (perceived) risk. Several books, at least one from Smithsonian. Probably not in print. A fresh one from Peebles was the UK using ballons against the Germans in WWII. Early on, a barrage ballon accidentally broke loose, and shorted some electric lines in Sweden, due to the csteel mooring lines. Someone in Whitehall said AHAH... Similar were launched against Germany. One at least shorted a major power station, the protective relays malfunctioned and the power station almost totally destroyed itself. (loss of phase sequence, reclose out of phase, for the techies out there....) It was estimated that that one incident cost the Germans more than the entire program cost the UK... >Also I've heard of the balloon project named Gopher, but I know very little >about that one as well. One stage of Moby Dick. It went thru many "code names". regards dwp ------------------------------ From: Wayne Fiori Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 17:05:33 PST Subject: Castle AFB Just got back from the long weekend and I wanted to share my experience with the group. I went to Castle's museum on friday for the sole purpose to see their SR-71 (tail number 17960). Wow!! This place has grown in two years. The SR-71 is out toward the access road and it looks so small. The tow bar for it is bigger than my car!! (okay and exaggeration but it IS large). For some reason I'd always thought of the plane being much larger, but the F-105 that is on display is about the same length and three times the height. Wow!! By the way, there were two fins under the fuselage on the port side of the plane, what are these for? Any ideas? Even though this plane looks like the definition of fast, it's hard to imagine something that small moving at mach 3.3. And for those of you who still want to discuss bomb load this place just acquired a B-36 to go along with its other bombers (17,18,24,29,50,57,52 with hounddog another). Right now it's in a fenced off area, in lotsa pieces. The fuselage is in three pieces and the engines are stacked nearby. Lots of prop driven cargo planes, a Huskie rescue helicopter, early jet fighters, trainers, and prototypes. I saw the airplane that lost the competition to the A-10: the A-9. Ugly! For those who would like to know where Castle is, it is in the San Jaoquin (sp?) valley by a small farming town called Atwater. Currently admission is free and the museum is open 10am-4pm every day. But since Castle is being decommisioned sometime soon the museum is looking for ways to support itself. Currently, voluteers (normally retired aircraft mechanics) restore all of the aircraft and provide the upkeep for the small cafeteria and indoor museum (no planes inside). The town wants to take over the museum when the base closes and charge for admission. A very nice museum all in all. - -- =============================================================================== |\//\\//\\//| Wayne R Fiori | e-mail: fiori@chemistry.ucsc.edu | |//\\//\\//\| Thimann Laboratories | Phone: (408)459-3390 [office] | |/\\//\\//\\| Chemistry Board, UCSC | (408)459-2935 [fax] | |\\//\\//\\/| Santa Cruz, CA 95064 | (408)459-4002 [message] | =============================================================================== ------------------------------ From: rbarton@who.cc.trincoll.edu (Ran Barton, III) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 21:03:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Balloons pierson@ggone.enet.dec.com writes: >A fresh one from Peebles was the UK using ballons against the Germans in WWII. >Early on, a barrage ballon accidentally broke loose, and shorted some electric >lines in Sweeden, due to the steel mooring lines. Someone in Whitehall said >AHAH... Similar were launched against Germany. One at least shorted a major >power station, the protective relays malfunctioned and the power station >almost totally destroyed itself. (loss of phase sequence, reclose out of >phase, for the techies out there...) It was estimated that that one incident >cost the Germans more than the entire program cost the UK... Reminds me of AW&ST's reports of the ALCMs dispensing reels of carbon thread to short out power grids in Iraq during the initial night of the attack. The idea was to shut down the defenses withour devastating Iraqi infrastructure. I think the article included Iraqi tours of installations affected by such attacks. I'm sorry that I can't provide a better citation, it's simply a reference I remember in passing. regards, Ran ______________________________________________________________ || Ran Barton, III '93 | A year passes apace || || rbarton@who.trincoll.edu | and proves ever new; || || Trinity College | First things and final || || 300 Summit Street - Box 955 | conform but seldom. || || Hartford, CT 06106-3100 | -The Gawain Poet || ||_______________________________|__________________________|| ------------------------------ From: Zel Eaton <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:AD04@NEMOMUS> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 22:26:08 EST Subject: Aurora Page 43, December 1992 edition of Monitoring Times (Federal File) states that the Aurora Project also goes by the code name of SENIOR CITIZEN. Anyone verify/disagree with this statement? Same column also quotes a Steven Aftergood, director of the Project on Government Secrecy as saying it cost the taxpayers $13.8 billion in 1989 to protect "classified information". Wonder how much of the 13.8 billion went to protect us skunkers from the facts? :) This column also describes an F-117A visit to an airshow at CFB, Comox (Canada). ". . . six armed marine guards with the craft at all times . . ." " . . . security personnel painted the silhouette of an F-117A on the tarmac . . . " for the benefit of sats passing overhead? Is this standard operating proceedure? ------------------------------ From: beagle!chandler@PacBell.COM (Jim Chandler) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 20:06:31 PST Subject: Re: Reconnaissance Balloons (lets try again) > There is a similar story in Ernest K. Gann's, "The Black Watch". The story > indicates some level of controversy between Kelly and Tony over the appropria > landing technique for the U-2. So there probably is some truth to at least th > Johnson/Le Vier controversy, even though "Black Watch" is fiction. > > Larry > The "Black Watch" is not entirely fiction. Some of the 'stories' are actually true and some of the characters mentioned are real people. Hopefully, one day, all of the true stories will be published and can replace the fictional ones. ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V2 #17 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "listserv@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". 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